TNA Discussion Thread

AIM me bro.

I need to confess something to you.

Headbanger wrote:

I still LOL so hard at the argument that "Vince raped ECW". May I ask how he did such a thing? Was it by putting over young talent like Sheamus, Jack Swagger, Kofi Kingston, and The Miz? Was it by giving guys like CM Punk and Evan Bourne a chance to show their talents to the entire world instead of some high school gym in Bumfuck, USA? Was it by giving vets like Mark Henry and William Regal the opportunity to revitalize their careers? Or was it by putting on arguably one of the best pure wrestling shows on TV at the time?

I was aiming more for the bastardazation of the name. While ECW stood for much more than just Hardcore Wrestling that was the one thing that made them different, that's why they had so many wrestling fans tune in the first show. Everyone wanted to see RVD surf a chair into someone's face, or see Sabu jump off something...that's what ECW did. Sure they had the occasional pure wrestling moments, but it much like Combat Zone Wrestling was founded under a Hardcore Basis. ECW wasn't something you showed to the entire world, it was something that the entire world had done for years, except in a much more extreme fashion. If they were just going to use it to put younger people over and keep it a pure wrestling show they should have named it WCW and left it at that.

Headbanger wrote:

Because you know, that is all ECW was ever about. ECW was a place where Aldo Montoya, Mr. JL, Scotty Flamingo, and Leif Cassidy were main-eventing. ECW was a place where Tajiri, Super Crazy, and Masato Tanaka were introduced to American audiences. ECW was a place where vets like Bam Bam Bigelow, Shane Douglas, and Mike Awesome could stop in and become forces again in professional wrestling before moving on to greener pastures.

And they were main eventing because they had new gimmicks that the American Audience could relate to. Not only that but the guys being introduced to the American Public weren't really getting introduced until the guys like Rey Mysterio and Psychosis left for a new start in WCW. And it has been like that for years Drew, several WWE Jobbers have went on to live a good career in other promotions. What about Tracey Smothers? His ass has jobbed before to several people. Still one of the richest dudes in the business and most popular might I add. Then there was the case of Steve Austin, who was a jobber bitch with Brian Pillman in WCW, only to turn around and be the Rattlesnake while Pillman became part of the Hart Foundation Stable in the WWF. So ECW wasn't the only place where guys got repackaged and noticed, Heyman was just better at doing it.

Headbanger wrote:

ECW was a feeding ground to the WWF. Call bullshit all you want but it is pretty common knowledge that Vince was funneling money to ECW for some time and also allowed ECW talent to compete on WWF television INCLUDING allowing Taz(z) to face Mike Awesome for the ECW title on Awesome's way out to WCW and then face Triple H in a champion vs. champion match on Smackdown.

No, ECW was a feeding ground for all the promotions that had more money. Just like RoH has become a feeding ground for TNA (Homicide, Alex Shelley, Chris Sabin, Chris Daniels) and WWE (CM Punk, Scotty Goldman, Paul London, Brian Kendrick, Tyler Black, Brian Danielson). It's a fortune of not having written contacts and it's a fortune of not being able to pay wrestlers millions upon millions of dollars as a smaller indy fed.

Headbanger wrote:

I was a huge ECW fan growing up in no small part thanks to the hardcore bullshit they did. As an older, wiser man; however; I do not want to see wrestlers do that anymore because I am smart enough to know it is bad for their health and I ESPECIALLY don't want to see the wrestlers who were doing it in my youth trying to do it now. Looking back ECW's gift to the industry was never about being hardcore. It was about giving a bunch of talented guys first and second chances to move on to the higher echelons of the industry and that is EXACTLY what Vince did in his ECW as well.

Hardcore Bullshit isn't bad for your health Drew, years upon years upon years of landing on nothing but wood and metal, and sometimes even concrete is bad for your health. Sure chair shots may kill a few brain cells, but no more than 10 headbangs at a concert. I am sure staple guns to the head aren't very healthy either, but the risks in wrestling are a lot less in hardcore than in pure. For example, when you're older what do you think is easier to take. A chairshot? Or a Snap Suplex? Chairshot is a winner. And if Hardcore Wrestling is so unhealthy then how come more Hardcore wrestlers have longer careers.

Terry Funk, Abdullah the Butcher, The Shiek, New Jack?

Headbanger wrote:

Meanwhile, TNA took an entire PPV out of their schedule to put over guys who are washed up, beaten up, and mostly just cannot go anymore. Honestly, in the big picture, what is the difference between TNA putting over Hogan and such and TNA putting over Raven and such? Either way, these are NOT guys you can currently build a company around. AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Mr. Anderson (as much as I hate him), D'Angelo Dinero, and Desmond Wolfe are the type you build companies around but most of them were pushed to the side to promote this cheap attempt to pop buyrates.

Well let's see. Vince made an ECW Reunion PPV and took one out of his schedule to do so. And personally I think TNA needs less PPVs so they can put more emphasis on the matches between them. Attitude Era Style. And it isn't like they put a belt on someone who can't go anymore, RVD is one of the most over guys in wrestling history. You're acting like TNA gave Raven the World Title to face Dreamer again, it's just not fitting into place it was only one reunion show, that's all it was! And to be honest the wrestling fucking sucked but god dammit that has been ECW since day 1. Highlight the positive, lowlight the negative.

Headbanger wrote:

EDIT: And on Jericho, he would be a goddamn fool to jump to TNA. Quite simply, Jericho is a man intelligent enough to diversify his interests outside of wrestling through music, game shows, and such. If he were in TNA, his name value would drop and these opportunities would be less common. Basically, to a TV show or game show or such; it goes like this:


Chris Jericho in WWE > Chris Jericho in TNA



That and that alone should be enough to convince Chris that for his long term financial shape and career prospects, WWE is just a better option.

He would be smart to jump to TNA. More time to pursue his rock career? More time to film his gameshow? Oh yeah let's not forget you'll get some extra money in an already fatass bank account to go along with it. If Hogan and Bitchoff would leave soon, and if Jericho stays mad at Papa Vince then I can see it happening.

See, I don't like that mentality at all Drew, the mentality that "Vince did all those guys a favour by using their talent". Look, by your logic Vince could have "made" any one who ever appear on the new ECW regardless of if it was the ECW or not. So then why he have to take the ECW name and change what it was about?

I don't say it was only a development league for WWE. WWF did take many names from ECW and gave it money but that doesn't mean it was OVW. ECW was on a tier below WCW and WWF and couldn't lock down it's stars. WCW took plenty of stars from ECW as well, so the idea of ECW being a playground for future WWE stars is out of place.

ECW was a company on one tier of the ladder, while WWE and WCW were above it. That's doesn't mean ECW efforts were futile. Far from it. The fact of things are that if you're the small guy you're going to get picked on. For example this week ROH Champion Tyler Black has been signed away by WWE. Does that make ROH a developmental fed for WWE? Far from it. ROH is a company to grow and expand at a steady pace, and accept that their stars will always be taken away until they get far bigger then they are now.

ECW was never about being a development fed. It just happened that it's stars were taken away. The point of the company was to be alternative and different from the big two, and it's succeeded for many years at that. When Vince took he pounded it until it was complete bland and in line with his other brands as possible.

Personally really don't like those opening paragraphs of yours Drew. All those names you mentioned that would have been in "some high school gym in Bumfuck, USA", they are deserved to have their talent displayed and profited from. They deserved to be popular. Just because they got popular on Vince's TV doesn't mean shit. If they were other companies the same size as the WWE in North America all those names would and should have deserved to be given the same opportunity to display their skills.

It's a give and take: Talent should respect Vince for giving them the opportunity, but by the same token Vince would respect the talent for bring their skills to his ring and not someone else's.

Drew, you mention guys like Bam Bam and Mike Awesome coming to ECW to restart there careers before leaving for the bigger two again. To me that says they had the talent all along and that the big two fucked up their pushs and couldn't realise it until ECW took those types of wrestlers and proved how good they were!

Just because ECW made new stars is no reason to deride it as a developmental. It should be praised for being able to generate stars as will as it's many other traits.

I mean, what would have said if ECW had survived 2001 (some how, hypnotically) and on into the modern era with no WCW? Surely you won't call ECW just a developmentally then.

So I totally reject ECW was just a developmental. It was a company like any other, the same as WCW, WWE, TNA or ROH. It just happened that alot of it's talent were taken.

TNA, taking one PPV off out of their 12 was fine by the way because TNA don't take much profit from PPV anways. So "OMG BUT DA MONEY!" arguments (which always, ALWAYS annoy me as a fan. Like, why the fuck should you the audience care if the company you watch is making money or not. All you should care about is if you get to see great wrestling or not) aren't really applicable to TNA. TNA on average only gets 8,000 to 10,000 PPV buys.

That said the rumours of a TNA vs ECW feud do sadden me, particularly as it's not that long ago since TNA did The front line Vs the Main Event Mafia which turned out to not be so great.




TL;DR? Vince isn't God. The talent deserves respect, and just because ECW's talents were taken doesn't make it a developmental fed.

I have a few holes to pick out of Omega's statements here.

Omega wrote:

I was aiming more for the bastardazation of the name. While ECW stood for much more than just Hardcore Wrestling that was the one thing that made them different, that's why they had so many wrestling fans tune in the first show. Everyone wanted to see RVD surf a chair into someone's face, or see Sabu jump off something...that's what ECW did. Sure they had the occasional pure wrestling moments, but it much like Combat Zone Wrestling was founded under a Hardcore Basis. ECW wasn't something you showed to the entire world, it was something that the entire world had done for years, except in a much more extreme fashion. If they were just going to use it to put younger people over and keep it a pure wrestling show they should have named it WCW and left it at that.

I don't like this, because it was clear from watching both one night stands and Sci-Fi's first year or so, Vince intended WWECW to be hardcore, as hardcore as the original thing, but what was clear was that Hardcore wrestling didn't work for a mainstream audience, as the ratings were in steady decline until they hit what TNA does now, it went from 2.5 average to a 1.0 average quite quick, once the nostalgia wore off. They modified the product thusly, and soon it was scrapped, and now we have NXT, which is basically doing what WWECW was doing in its later days, putting over new talent.

Omega wrote:

And they were main eventing because they had new gimmicks that the American Audience could relate to. Not only that but the guys being introduced to the American Public weren't really getting introduced until the guys like Rey Mysterio and Psychosis left for a new start in WCW. And it has been like that for years Drew, several WWE Jobbers have went on to live a good career in other promotions. What about Tracey Smothers? His ass has jobbed before to several people. Still one of the richest dudes in the business and most popular might I add. Then there was the case of Steve Austin, who was a jobber bitch with Brian Pillman in WCW, only to turn around and be the Rattlesnake while Pillman became part of the Hart Foundation Stable in the WWF. So ECW wasn't the only place where guys got repackaged and noticed, Heyman was just better at doing it.

No, they didn't have gimmicks the "american audience" could relate to, that's one of the reasons it would never work on a mainstream TV deal. ECW's audience could relate to an extent to what they were seeing, but not the everyday american. Most people aren't either heavy-smoking heavy-drinkers, or cynical loners, or laid-back druggies. It doesn't work on a mainstream audience, but it worked for the little audience that ECW had.

Omega wrote:

No, ECW was a feeding ground for all the promotions that had more money. Just like RoH has become a feeding ground for TNA (Homicide, Alex Shelley, Chris Sabin, Chris Daniels) and WWE (CM Punk, Scotty Goldman, Paul London, Brian Kendrick, Tyler Black, Brian Danielson). It's a fortune of not having written contacts and it's a fortune of not being able to pay wrestlers millions upon millions of dollars as a smaller indy fed.

By that logic, everyone would have left ECW because ECW had no money in its later days, and could barely pay its talents.

Omega wrote:

Hardcore Bullshit isn't bad for your health Drew, years upon years upon years of landing on nothing but wood and metal, and sometimes even concrete is bad for your health. Sure chair shots may kill a few brain cells, but no more than 10 headbangs at a concert. I am sure staple guns to the head aren't very healthy either, but the risks in wrestling are a lot less in hardcore than in pure. For example, when you're older what do you think is easier to take. A chairshot? Or a Snap Suplex? Chairshot is a winner. And if Hardcore Wrestling is so unhealthy then how come more Hardcore wrestlers have longer careers.

Terry Funk, Abdullah the Butcher, The Shiek, New Jack?

This is pretty simple, Hardcore Wrestlers have longer careers because its easier to do. Im sure Bret Hart can take a chairshot these days, but not so much a snap suplex. Hardcore wrestling is bad for your health, you would be delusioned to think otherwise. Constantly having your head bashed in by steel does take its toll and do damage, thats why the chairshot to the head is banned in WWE.

Omega wrote:

Well let's see. Vince made an ECW Reunion PPV and took one out of his schedule to do so. And personally I think TNA needs less PPVs so they can put more emphasis on the matches between them. Attitude Era Style. And it isn't like they put a belt on someone who can't go anymore, RVD is one of the most over guys in wrestling history. You're acting like TNA gave Raven the World Title to face Dreamer again, it's just not fitting into place it was only one reunion show, that's all it was! And to be honest the wrestling fucking sucked but god dammit that has been ECW since day 1. Highlight the positive, lowlight the negative.

Vince took a show out of his schedule because he intended to make a long running storyline out of it, and make a seperate brand using it, and the people involved. It wasn't like hardcore Justice which had "nothing to do with TNA" quote tommy dreamer, ONS had everything to do with WWE, it was their main running angle at the time, and became a big deal over the following two years.

Omega wrote:

He would be smart to jump to TNA. More time to pursue his rock career? More time to film his gameshow? Oh yeah let's not forget you'll get some extra money in an already fatass bank account to go along with it. If Hogan and Bitchoff would leave soon, and if Jericho stays mad at Papa Vince then I can see it happening.

Don't be silly, Jericho isn't leaving WWE for TNA, it would be just a poor career move, full stop.

PX wrote:

I have a few holes to pick out of Omega's statements here.

I don't like this, because it was clear from watching both one night stands and Sci-Fi's first year or so, Vince intended WWECW to be hardcore, as hardcore as the original thing, but what was clear was that Hardcore wrestling didn't work for a mainstream audience, as the ratings were in steady decline until they hit what TNA does now, it went from 2.5 average to a 1.0 average quite quick, once the nostalgia wore off. They modified the product thusly, and soon it was scrapped, and now we have NXT, which is basically doing what WWECW was doing in its later days, putting over new talent.

Ratings went down quick because the very first episode of the new ECW wasn't all that appealing to the old ECW audience or to the current WWE audience. The new ECW, even in the first year, just didn't have the anti-authority, non-mainstream, gritty feel to it that the old ECW had and that put off the old audience. The mainstream WWE looked at the show and saw bits of the WWE brands and some watched while the rest stuck to what they liked the most, the bigger WWE brands.

Also, Vince never intended it to me hardcore. Rob Van Dam quotes Vince saying to him specifically "We're not going to appeal to the old audience, we're going to generate a new one". Sabu also agrees that Vicne said this, and wonders why the old audience couldn't have been appealed to as a new one generated and merged with the old audience.


A while I specifically googled and found wrestling forums and went back in they're threads to see what the reaction to the first ECW was like. By in large the majority, from Day One, felt the new ECW wasn't living up to the atmosphere created by ECW. And certainly where ECW was shot didn't help at all. ECW should have been shot on the East Coast pretty much for the first few months so the new audience could view what an ECW audience should be and learn from them. Instead the new ECW was immediately thrown in locations not only that the old ECW had never been to, but towns the WWE it's self didn't normally do such as shows in Settle and rural Georgia.


Also NXT doesn't even draw as much as the new ECW did even in it's final days. During the last months of the new ECW it drew around the 1.0 to 1.3 rating, while NXT draws around the 0.90 region. Also the first new ECW in fact drew in the region 4.5 (as much as Smackdown) and for the first month stayed in the 3. region. There was a audience interested in seeing the old ECW done through the WWE but when they didn't get that that audience left.

I'd like to note I personally feel there were alot of people who have never seen the orginal ECW but through learning about it either through the internet or the WWE would have loved to see and would have made up an audience for the new ECW but left when the WWE didn't offer that up.





Also I'd like to say that ECW, while non always super relate able , were realistic enough for people to enjoy them. Raven was very popular, and that was proven by his success in WCW. Sandman's character was over the top but people enjoyed whether they were like him or not. I mean, not everyone who is a Stone Cold fan is just like him.

Finally PX's comments about hardcore being bad for health are confusing...I don't get the "Bret Hart could take a chairshot but not a back suplex" thing.

ECW to Wrestling was like Grunge to Hair Bands.

No one does grunge anymore.

Fuck TNA, Fuck ECW, Fuckfuckfuck.

The Celt wrote:

See, I don't like that mentality at all Drew, the mentality that "Vince did all those guys a favour by using their talent". Look, by your logic Vince could have "made" any one who ever appear on the new ECW regardless of if it was the ECW or not. So then why he have to take the ECW name and change what it was about?

You may not like that mentality, but it is the absolute truth. No matter how much you deny it, that's what Vince did to ECW; that's what he had ECW evolve into.

You have a legit gripe on the name; I'd say it was just a matter of practicality. WWECW started out as ECW, eventually the ECW Originals just couldn't cut it anymore, so Vince had to turn it into something else. And guess what? It worked. It just took him a drop in the ratings to finally get rid of the ECW name.