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MPD

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PostSubject: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 7:25 am

Ok.

Now, as was my understanding, we used to receive penalties for promoing after the initial deadline.
Then someone got butthurt and the idea of penalties was removed, citing that promoing late often lead to a vote loss which was penalty enough.


EXCEPT NOT REALLY.

Because, very often you will see posts in the OOC saying 'My promo is coming tomorrow, please read it before you vote.'

I wonder how many people do? I'd assume one or two, at least.

And secondly.

Quote :
Triple Threat Electric Chair Match
Matt P. Dunn vs. Damien Inferno vs. Jack Eastwood
Really liked his promo from last time, so gets my vote. I know only Dunn has promoed, but I'm voting as if they all have

Now that is bullshit. (Nothing against you personally Edible, just want to clear this up initially.)
Maybe I'm only complaining because it's a vote against me. It'd still be bullshit if it were a vote for me, I would just be less likely to complain about it.

So.

What is the point of promoing by the first deadline? There is no insentive to do so, and you actually find yourself at an advantage by holding off, giving yourself more time.

What is the point of voting on promos at all at this point? How many people vote 'cause they liked the LAST promo, or because they're a mark of whoever, or fuck me it's Jaro, no one can beat Jaro, or lolcoinflip, or faction block votes, or etc, etc. How many of you objectively compare all the writing that is done 100% of the time? Well, I can tell you that as of the time of writing, none of the voters for NHB are voting as such 100% of the time.

And the more important question is, how can this be resolved?

My one idea on the matter is votes will not be accepted unless accompanied with a valid annotation on why they have voted any particular way. (What I consider a valid reason and what other people consider a valid reason may differ, so leave it to the powers that be.)

I now invite you to share your thoughts, even if it is just to say 'lol umad bro?'
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 7:36 am

This discussion has been done over and over (and over) again in AIM, on the boards, I actually think there's a chat in the HO from a few months back regarding this. My thoughts are as such; voting is honestly a free for all. Voting blocks are discouraged, but they happen anyways. I recall Jaro saying that he voted based on who he wanted to win, via storyline or personal preference, but his ratings themselves were based off the promo. Either way, the voting process is makes FMW democratic. To take away the right to vote for whichever reason you may choose would turn the fed into one of the standard e-feds out there today that rely on only a few select people to decide match outcomes.

As for your point about "valid annotation on why they have voted any particular way", Edible did just that. However, like you said, whether a reasoning is valid or not is subjective. But you still can't take that power away from people because you may disagree with who someone voted for or why they did so.

In conclusion, lolumadbro?

P.S. I tried my best to be coherent with that response, but it's 4:30 in the morning and I've been up for 23 hours.

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 7:56 am

Well, it comes down to 'last promo was good, so yeah sure let's vote for him even though he could put out a crock of shit this time round' is not a valid reason as far as I am concerned.

Everything prior should have a line drawn under them.

OR,

Bring back late penalties. If I can lose a vote because something someone wrote weeks ago was good, then they can lose some APS because they missed the deadline that I worked to meet.


And yes, I am madbro.
I'm being penalized for showing up on time, because Damien's promo last match was enjoyable, where as Damien has an extra 48 hours to work on his promo. As I said, it's bullshit.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 8:36 am

You're taking this way too seriously, Matt. It was just one guy's vote (yes, one vote can be the difference, etc.). I think it's a stupid reason too, but whatever. You're getting butthurt over something that's not going to change, so just drop it.

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 8:49 am

I don't think you're taking the issue seriously enough. Because nothings going to change if everyone has that mindset.

Less apathy, sir.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 9:09 am

For what it's worth, Edible has always voted for who he wants to win moreso than on promo scores, that's how he does it, and its his democratic right I guess

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 9:28 am

Ohboyit'sthisthreadagain.jpg

I expect cameos from the regular cast to pop up soon.

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 10:37 am

Porygon-X wrote:
For what it's worth, Edible has always voted for who he wants to win moreso than on promo scores, that's how he does it, and its his democratic right I guess

Voting for who you want to win is fine.
Voting for last shows promo is what I'm having an issue with.
And actually,

The real issue I'm having is the lack of insentive to promo on time. Now, I'm not entirely thrilled with my promo. If I had an extra 48 hours I might have come up with something I was happier with. But no. I decided to stick to the deadline. Because that used to mean something.

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 11:37 am

I'd of waited until after the voting period passed before I said anything, because now you're probably going to have 5-6 people say "haha, watch how butthurt this faggot gets" before voting against you.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 11:39 am

I just don't think there was a reason, or at least a good reason for getting rid of the late penalty. That's my only contribution. Voting will happen the way voting always has.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 12:13 pm

I agree with Clarke. I hated the fact that penalties were removed, and some of it has to do with the fact that I bust my ass, possibly to my own detriment to get my promo up on time.

Then again I begin to brainstorm ideas when they hit, or when I have the slightest idea of my next opponent. But yeah, everyone in favor of penalties being removed were all "Well showing up late is penalty enough, you'll be down in votes"

Then those same people are like "Don't vote on my match just yet, my promo is coming, just be patient"

Then, when they get voted against, they're all "I hate when people blind vote, or not even reconsider their choice even though my promo is up." This would have been a non-issue if you showed up before voting started so meh.

Besides, I've lost a match because of votes that were like "Well Eddie won last time so let's get this guy the win as to not kill his momentum" even though I've won a match or two then lost plenty matches in a row, to hell with my momentum.


As for this issue, I don't think there's a bonafide method to use. Over in LPW the HWs have the raters explain their ratings with a couple of sentences. Asking the voters to do the same is unfair, mostly because it's a hassle on them and it won't change anything if you see, say...


The Celt v. Jack Eastwood

REASON: SoA for the win!

Of course that's likely a bad example. I personally think that most of your argument, Dunn, is based around the reason why Edible didn't vote for you. I get your anger, but it's his vote, he can do as he wishes.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 12:43 pm

I'd like to say that I never once said that I wanted people to refrain from voting on my match until after I posted my promo. I posted in the ooc thread because I thought I should let my opponents and tag partner know that I was not no showing, but I'd be a tad late. The ooc thread seemed the quickest way of doing so.

On the late penalty, I don't like it. I'd be getting penalized every show for not getting my promo in before voting started. If I didn't phone it in, that is. Just saying. But once again, it's all about choice and opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 1:11 pm

I still am in favor of the penalty.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 1:41 pm

I am in favor of it not existing.

To the surprise of no one.

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 6:03 pm

RCA wrote:
Of course that's likely a bad example. I personally think that most of your argument, Dunn, is based around the reason why Edible didn't vote for you. I get your anger, but it's his vote, he can do as he wishes.

Probably entirely right there. Had he left no justification for his vote I probably wouldn't have said a thing.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 8:08 pm

This thread is ridiculous. It's unnecessary because as Slegna pointed out, this discussion has been done to death.

As for the reason why the penalties were removed, well, ask Drew.

I have half a mind to lock this thread because the discussion is moot, but let's see where it goes. Matthew, man up.

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 8:28 pm

Actually, while Drew is in favor of continuing without the penalties, it was actually Jaro who removed them.

Anyways, while the thread doesn't need to be locked, this whole situation is most definitely pointless. We've all been screwed over voting-wise one way or another. Bitching about it won't actually do anything, except maybe actually make you lose more votes, if people decide to vote against you out of spite for whining.

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 8:37 pm

RCA wrote:
I still am in favor of the penalty.


Of course you are because, 99 out of 100 times, you go out of your way to find out when you are booked next and against whom in order to write your promo before the Voting and Promo Thread even gets posted. A penalty does nothing to you negatively and in fact benefits you because your opponent may show up late. The majority of the roster does not do that nor should they have to so they are the people affected by a penalty. <3 you though.

As for a penalty, I see no beneficial side to it. The penalty punishes those who want to take the entire time to write, which is their own prerogative and they should know the risk; the risk being the loss of votes if you take the time to write. The penalty, from my experience, just caused many to not write a promo at all since they saw it as a waste of time to try to compete since they were down a handful of votes AND an unchangeable penalty. So, from what I saw, the only thing a penalty did was discourage competitors from writing promos for every show, which is what we want, and punished those who took time promised them by the system we use. Thus, I completely pulled away from penalties when I took charge and it would take a ton of evidence to the contrary to make me change my mind.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 10:07 pm

de ja vu much

or maybe that old chestnut about insanity being the act of doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is more appropriate here.........

I'm sure you can guess which side of this argument I fall on. The names on each side of the fence read as a who's who of promo'ing early/late but how about this though:

Maybe Drew is right, penalising people for being late is the wrong way to go about things. If someone wants to take up the entire V&P period to post that is their perogative so who are we to penalise them for doing so??

So how about this as a counter??

Instead of penalising those who promo late we should reward those who promo early.

Now I can already hear the responses: "That is effectively the same thing" and you know what, yeh it is but I think you need the incentive to post early and here is why:

MPD wrote:
What is the point of promoing by the first deadline? There is no insentive to do so, and you actually find yourself at an advantage by holding off, giving yourself more time.

This raises two questions

1.Is there actually an advatage to promo'ing later?

2. If everyone starts promoing later and later, is that such a bad thing?

Yes and yes.

1. Firstly the clear advantage to voting later is you get to see your opponent's work and if it looks like a killer you can take the time and really make yours as good as can be. ie you know what you have to beat. Sure you may miss a few votes but I think the majority will change votes for a killer late promo. By going early you risk that you put out a solid promo and then your opponent busts out the promo of their e-career and you are left going OH SHIT, I'M FUCKED.

2. If we all start posting our promo a half hour** before the end of V&P what happens then is somehow we all have to attempt to read 20-30 promos in half an hour** in time to make a vote. Or we just vote for who we like better or who TBM/RCA/Drew/et al voted for because those guys know a good promo when they see one.

Fact is Drew (and the rest of the HO staff) you NEED the guys who promo early to get things going. It gets people thinking about what they need to be doing, it gives us a chance to read a few promos early so that we aren't in a mad rush at the end. If there is a match where both promo early it is sooo much easier when it comes down to the last minute not to have to look at that match for votes.

If we all promo later and later it falls in a hole, but if there is no incentive to promo early who's going to do it? Ed will as you said probably always will but who else? I don't get the impression Dunn will be rushing out to promo anytime soon. I used to try and get my promo up before Ed as a personal challenge to myself, now I strategically hold off on posting even if I am finished before the deadline.

This is why you need an incentive to promo early. If you don't like the idea of penalising someone for taking the alloted time then fine, reward those who are willing to bust their asses to beat that because it is in the best interest of the fed that a percentage of the participants do.


** half an hour might be a slight exaggeration but the point is valid if you substitue "hour" for "day". With time zone issues etc it makes it impossible for many of us to read the flurry of late promos.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 10:23 pm

A simply counter-argument to that very well thought out post: The longer a promo is up, the more likely it is to be read from what I have seen. There is also the fact that because people often take the time to read early promos as compared to later ones allows for the beautiful praise people sometimes heap upon promos in the OOC thread that you cannot tell me does not at least subconsciously influence votes. So yes, there are incentives to promoing later at times but there are also incentives to promoing earlier.

I know personally when I first started e-fedding my goal was always to either get my promo up first or get it up as the last possible promo before voting started so it was the last thing people saw before they started reading votes. Now that my name is a bit more established, I do not go to such lengths but the advantage for both sides is still there and will always be there in this system. If you take more time, you risk losing votes from the early voters who we all know, despite promises otherwise, do not always have time to go back and read again (nothing personal, I've been there as that voter before just like everyone else has). If you don't take the time, you risk having your opponent step their game up or use your promo to as a bouncing point for ideas (something Ham/Doc was incredible at once upon a time). There are advantages and disadvantages to when you get a promo up and I see it as a part of the strategy of the overall game just as everything else from trash-talking to voting is.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 10:41 pm

I know there was some valid counter points in there and all but I just took that whole post as:

Tip #1 from the big boss:

"If someone beats you to post their promo then out wait the rest of the roster and make sure your promo is the last one posted"

I could try to counter your arguments back (and the points are fairly obvious to me) but I'll leave it at that. My thoughts are well known on this issue and I don't expect to change anyone's opinions.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 10:45 pm

MPD wrote:
Well, it comes down to 'last promo was good, so yeah sure let's vote for him even though he could put out a crock of shit this time round' is not a valid reason as far as I am concern.

First off, if he doesn't show, my vote doesn't really matter.

Second off, I DO NOT VOTE BASED ON WHO HAS THE BETTER PROMO. There's nothing in the rules that says you ought to. Personally, I don't have time to read everyone's promo, and I vote based on other things. I voted for Damien because I like the effort he's put in and I think he's due for a push.

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 10:53 pm

Drew Michaels wrote:
RCA wrote:
I still am in favor of the penalty.


Of course you are because, 99 out of 100 times, you go out of your way to find out when you are booked next and against whom in order to write your promo before the Voting and Promo Thread even gets posted. A penalty does nothing to you negatively and in fact benefits you because your opponent may show up late. The majority of the roster does not do that nor should they have to so they are the people affected by a penalty. <3 you though.

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That said, not only was this a pretty solid show, but Dalby Sound was written to an effing T. Well done to all the writers, who to be honest wrote Dalby better than I used to. lol

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Thu May 26, 2011 11:46 pm

My two cents: I don't care.

Me, I write my promos, I try to get them done before the deadline. If I'm successful, I'll talk to one of my few friends in the fed and ask for their general thoughts on it. I accept their criticism, maybe edit my promo and then post it. If they don't get back to me, I post it on the absolute last day before voting starts. If we do do the rewards system, I might promo earlier, but the points I'd get as a reward would be about what I'd lose by not taking more time.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Fri May 27, 2011 12:06 am

I don't buy the argument that people here really penalize others for promoing early. Plenty of people vote early and vote only for those who have showed at the time, and often those same people never get back to updating their votes. I have been one of those people in the past, and it's a big part of why I vote the way I do. This week, I'm moving out from BG back home, and I'm not sure if I'll have time to update my votes later. Hence, I am voting based on other things. I have always done so. At the last PPV, I voted Trey Spruance for the torch, because I thought the guy honestly deserves some love around these parts (even if he posted half a promo).

Plus, if it's clear that somebody who wrote a superior promo was "vote-raped", that person gains a certain credibility with the voters going forward. I remember this happening in LPW with Ham, where he was vote-raped by Pen for the title. Going forward, Ham always had the voters behind him. I suspect that people notice when they scroll past the matches and read the end results that certain people tend to have way higher promo scores.

Furthermore, it's just the nature of this fed and others that sometimes you're going to be beat by somebody who promos worse than you. I've seen so many people bitch about voting practices before. At this point, just expect it. For example, I think we all know who we would EXPECT to have the best promo in a match between myself and Drew (Drew, duh). Even if I was booked against Drew and thought I had the better promo, I know damn well that I would still probably lose that match because:

a) I'd be an idiot to assume that everyone reads every promo
b) Drew usually posts much better promos than me
c) I know that people will vote in numbers for Drew, just based on these 2 facts

It happens all the time, and if you're really going to get butthurt about it, I guess just try to get yourself booked against rookies all the time. Really though, if you're putting up quality promos consistently, you'll get your votes. Austin, Drew, Bryson, TBM, Tyrant and Harlequin are all guys that have that sort of reputation (in my mind at least).

In conclusion, there's no good reason to give a shit about how people vote.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Fri May 27, 2011 1:10 am

Would like to make it clear that my issue is not with voting.

People can and will vote how they want. Is it frustrating to see a guy who made no effort get the vote when you have spent hours of your valuable time get the vote for arbitrary reasons? Yes. Is it wrong? No, it's called a donkey vote and it effects every democratic political system in the western world in the same way. That's why the orders on ballot sheets etc is such a hotly contested issue.

My argument is that there should be an incentive for promoing early. At best the arguments I've heard countering are that promoing early vs late is not an advantage either way as both have their benefits and weaknesses. So in that case I again ask the question why would you bust your arse to go early when you can cruise and have no repercussions?

Their needs to be an incentive.

The argument that people are busy and penalising them for being late is not fair is a crock of shit in my opinion. We are all busy, I have a full time job, a wife & three kids plus currently being on 5 seperate committees for various community groups and I'm studying online toward a degree in accounting. That doesn't even mentioned the things I do for fun (That's right I don't sleep. EVER). I'm not saying my stuff is more important than anyone else's but if other people can't make the time to promo before the deadline because they were "too busy" that's fine FMW clearly wasn't their priority. But it was their decision to put it at the back of the queue and they should cop the penalty. God damn our society these days where nothing is ever our own faults, there's always an excuse or someone to blame.

anyway, I said I would leave it alone before but meh, I can't help myself. In the words of De, I am a cranky old man.
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Fri May 27, 2011 3:45 am

And what exactly is "early"? Currently, early is before the first deadline.

Assuming majority were to promo "early," they would all get said incentive. Which would then be neutralized because everyone's getting it.

What exactly did you people have in mind when you brought up the concept of an incentive?

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Fri May 27, 2011 4:18 am

10 bucks?
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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Fri May 27, 2011 5:04 am

I'll throw my opinion into the hat because I can.

I'm on Team Drew for this one, I'm against the penalty, and his idea of promoing early means its most likely to be read is perfectly valid, and applies to myself certainly.

I'm not gonna lie and say I read all the promoes every show, because I don't. I usually sit down one day, usually the day of the deadline and read a handful, and vote the next day. If there's one I'm holding out to see, I may vote the second day. And after I've voted, I rarely go back and redo it, because that's the lazy fuck I am, so if you've missed out on my vote, you should've promo'ed earlier. Now, if you were to be penalized ON TOP of losing the votes of lazy fucks like myself, it'd be an even steeper hill to climb to have a shot at winning, so I find the penalty pointless. Some people want to continue the story they're telling and will promo, others will just save their promo for when it actually has a shot at winning rather than waste it on a lost matchup. Penalties give you less insentive to promo after the deadline. Maybe it's not much less, but it is less.

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PostSubject: Re: A look into the voting and scoring method.   Fri May 27, 2011 5:08 am

I've explained it all before, and I'll explain it again.

The FMW scoring system is split into two parts.

Writing Skill (Average Promo Score/APS)
Democratic Voice (Voting)

The writing skill is a major part, as it's a reflection on both the strength of the character, and is a major tool in the persuasion of voters.

The democratic voice is exactly that. People publicly voicing their opinion on whom they believe should win. It is not reflective of the promo score, the quality or strength of the character, nor their form. Rather, it's a reflection of who the general public would like to see come out victorious.

Some times they will vote almost unanimously. Sometimes, it will be split down the middle. Other times, the will vote against the trend of the promo score, and vote for someone who has a "poorer quality" promo. What ever happens, they vote. And their vote can not be questioned. Nobody, not the most senior veterans, not the most junior rookie, not the president, not any staff member, nobody, has the right to question why a person votes a way they do.

It's like a presidential election in terms of the votes. Promos are like the policies, the debates, the ideals of the candidate. They're putting forth what they stand for. but when it comes to voting, everyone has a different reason for voting. And their reason is just as valid as the next guy's. Regardless of whether they're voting for a candidate because they felt their arguements were compelling, or that the fact they used "Comic Sans" as the font for all their publications, or even as petty as "lol, I like his hair". it's their vote, they can use and cast it however they like. And just like a presidential election, EVERY vote is counted (as long as it sticks to the pre-determined proforma/rules).

Unlike the presidential elections however, the winner is decided by combining the popularity with their skill. It's the most balanced system we have available. We have tried others, and we have tried adjusting the emphasis on different elements, but every time, we've found what we have now as the most fair, just and balanced system.

TL;DR?

People vote how they want. Nobody has the right to complain or question a person's votes. Nobody.



And before you start up "But protect people with awesome promos from vote rape" claims, remember this. All this has come from a person who's lost A LARGE number of high profile matches (including 3 championship matches and 1 number one contenders match), while having the highest promo score, because of "vote rape". I'll also admit that I've been on the other side of the fence a couple of times. BUT, end of the day, vote rape happens. Man up and deal with it.
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